[TF] The Esteemed Palace of the Crane (Stronghold)

What do you think?

Great
21
46%
Good
18
39%
Average
7
15%
Not for me
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 46

Himoto
Gunso
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:46 am

Re: [TF] The Esteemed Palace of the Crane (Stronghold)

Postby Himoto » Sat Oct 25, 2014 8:14 pm

You didn't answer to the question of WHY the least military Clan in the empire need a stronghold that support military. Sure design has made some, but why should it be the default for a clan that's explicitly not a military clan? DT is not pigeonholing the Crane into honor out of the blue: the Crane have been the honor clan of the game since the game was first released near twenty years ago.

Plus, as far as honor goes... Shiro Daidoji was useless unless you actually went into battle (so great for switch, okay(-ish) for military or against military, and atrocious in the honor/honor or honor/dishonor matchup. And last arc's box was only "good" for honor pre-errata, when it was busted for everything (and even then better at military). Post-errata, the only thing it ever did for honor was let you make a couple of bad holdings slightly less bad, and otherwise it was blank the whole game.

That's the cornerstone here. BOTH the strongholds you named are situationally blank for honor (Shiro Daidoji is effectively blank against non-military ; the Ivory 1 box is blank unless you run a handful of pretty sub-par holdings.

But ultimately, the fundamental matter is simply that military's a Crane sideline, and support for it belong where support for side themes go - on sensei. That sensei can replace the stronghold and make it do military things; that's what sensei do. It shouldn,t be somethign for the stronghold to focus on.

Kakita Takata
Nikutai
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:53 pm

Re: [TF] The Esteemed Palace of the Crane (Stronghold)

Postby Kakita Takata » Sat Oct 25, 2014 11:54 pm

Himoto wrote:You didn't answer to the question of WHY the least military Clan in the empire need a stronghold that support military. Sure design has made some, but why should it be the default for a clan that's explicitly not a military clan? DT is not pigeonholing the Crane into honor out of the blue: the Crane have been the honor clan of the game since the game was first released near twenty years ago.

Plus, as far as honor goes... Shiro Daidoji was useless unless you actually went into battle (so great for switch, okay(-ish) for military or against military, and atrocious in the honor/honor or honor/dishonor matchup. And last arc's box was only "good" for honor pre-errata, when it was busted for everything (and even then better at military). Post-errata, the only thing it ever did for honor was let you make a couple of bad holdings slightly less bad, and otherwise it was blank the whole game.

That's the cornerstone here. BOTH the strongholds you named are situationally blank for honor (Shiro Daidoji is effectively blank against non-military ; the Ivory 1 box is blank unless you run a handful of pretty sub-par holdings.

But ultimately, the fundamental matter is simply that military's a Crane sideline, and support for it belong where support for side themes go - on sensei. That sensei can replace the stronghold and make it do military things; that's what sensei do. It shouldn,t be somethign for the stronghold to focus on.


+1 internet

User avatar
Asahina Shimato
Chui
Posts: 150
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:34 am

Re: [TF] The Esteemed Palace of the Crane (Stronghold)

Postby Asahina Shimato » Sun Oct 26, 2014 12:51 am

As long as Honor works, I have no problem with a pure honor stronghold.
However, there's a reason we have been saddled with several variants of battle strongholds: Design has been very outspoken for the last several arcs that "Honor has to be forced to go to battle" and is supposed to falter against dishonor. The question is, have they changed their approach?
Just by looking at this Stronghold you can't really tell if having a box that "helps" Honor will really help Honor out of this niche...

"Honor decks can't be faster than military or dishonor." I honestly doubt this design philosophy has changed, so if we get a stronghold that speeds us up, there's bound to be something that slows us down too.

Himoto
Gunso
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:46 am

Re: [TF] The Esteemed Palace of the Crane (Stronghold)

Postby Himoto » Sun Oct 26, 2014 1:14 am

Oh, I'm more than wiling to believe this is a *bad* stronghold. It could very well be, depending on what else we get. And I'm well aware of the DT's...dubious...stance on honor.

But if the solution to that problem is more "Crane must play military"? Then no. Sorry, but while it can be a fun subtheme, if Crane must rely on military as a wincon to compete, then frankly the Cranes might as well be removed from th egame. What would be left (the cards, not the players, obviously) would be Cranes in name only; a bunch of Mantis in powder blue pretending to be Cranes.

Honor as a victory condition is our single most defining feature. Abandon that, or push it to the sidelines, and what's life just isn't the Crane clan anymore.

User avatar
Asahina Shimato
Chui
Posts: 150
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:34 am

Re: [TF] The Esteemed Palace of the Crane (Stronghold)

Postby Asahina Shimato » Tue Oct 28, 2014 6:23 am

Well, we now know the Sensei we can work with in Strict for military decks:
  • Tadanobu
  • Kobi
  • Sachina
  • Shika

User avatar
Oilcan
Hohei
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:37 am

Re: [TF] The Esteemed Palace of the Crane (Stronghold)

Postby Oilcan » Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:05 am

Akagi-Sensei is also legal for Strict.

(Strict: Everything printed in the current calendar year)
No sky, no earth - but still snowflakes fall

User avatar
Asahina Shimato
Chui
Posts: 150
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:34 am

Re: [TF] The Esteemed Palace of the Crane (Stronghold)

Postby Asahina Shimato » Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:50 am

I thought it was only the blue bug...

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Kakita Shiro
Daimyo
Posts: 2115
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:22 am
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Re: [TF] The Esteemed Palace of the Crane (Stronghold)

Postby Kakita Shiro » Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:58 am

Oilcan wrote:Akagi-Sensei is also legal for Strict.

(Strict: Everything printed in the current calendar year)

It's legal for Strict at the moment, but it won't be legal for Arc or Strict in 2015, only Extended.
Bushi. Artisan. Duelist. Magistrate. Hatamoto.

CCG Trades

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Foxtrot Four
Nikutai
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2014 11:32 pm

Re: [TF] The Esteemed Palace of the Crane (Stronghold)

Postby Foxtrot Four » Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:50 pm

so I play tested this and I LOVE this!
I can get 1 Poorly Placed Garden turn 2 and a holding and I can buy 1 Guy and 1 Holding turn 3 and gain upwards of 7 honor A TURN
against local folk [small pond, small fish sadly, [[I am no exception]] I can consistantly hit 20 before the first attack let alone the first province take. and that's good news.
Being a Scrub, One Day at a Time
Top 4 Crane - Seattle Kotei 2014

chameshi.nampa
Hohei
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:46 am

Re: [TF] The Esteemed Palace of the Crane (Stronghold)

Postby chameshi.nampa » Sun Nov 02, 2014 9:37 am

I've changed my opinion on this stronghold. I like it.

I've playtested it, and have won more games than I've lost, using a strict IE2 deck vs IE decks. The majority of my wins were through honor with some military.

However, keep in mind that my environment is very small and almost solely military. I feel the deck I used would be a bad match against a pure honor runner. Also a bad match against a deck with lots of kill actions. I have no idea how it would do against dishonor.

The deck I used is an honor-military switch, with a strong defense for my environment. The intent is to go military early on, but ultimately switch to honor running after hopefully taking a province or two. Usually I don't, but they normally end up playing some cards from their hand on the defense. However, the 2 extra honor each turn pushes my opponent to constantly attack, even if they would be at a disadvantage to do so. When they attack, I usually have a strong enough defense to either repel their attack or end up with more force than their army, which gains me honor at battle resolution.

The gold flowed well in most of my games, even without Soken and the additional 1GP during limited. The deck runs 9-12 attachments, with the most expensive one being 5GP. Granted, I do miss the extra gold since I run many attachments, but the 2 extra honor helps move me closer to the honor win condition.


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