Doji Hotaru Clarification

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Kakita Shiro
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Doji Hotaru Clarification

Postby Kakita Shiro » Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:23 pm

Email finally came back from Nate French, lead designer; he said that Hotaru can trigger the ring on defense, but it does not make you the attacker.
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Re: Doji Hotaru Clarification

Postby KakitaKaori » Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:52 pm

Does that mean you can't trigger the ring in a way that benefits you? Or does that mean you just can't be considered the attacker for other card effects? This clarification is unclear...there wouldn't be any reason to trigger the ring in such a way as to harm you. Do you get to pick which effects the ring does that would be beneficial? Like which card gets to be bowed or unbowed with ring of water? Or who loses a fate? Even on your own side?
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Re: Doji Hotaru Clarification

Postby Kakita Shiro » Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:07 pm

KakitaKaori wrote:Does that mean you can't trigger the ring in a way that benefits you? Or does that mean you just can't be considered the attacker for other card effects? This clarification is unclear...there wouldn't be any reason to trigger the ring in such a way as to harm you. Do you get to pick which effects the ring does that would be beneficial? Like which card gets to be bowed or unbowed with ring of water? Or who loses a fate? Even on your own side?

You don't get to decide anything. Everything is decided by the attacker for all effects.
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Re: Doji Hotaru Clarification

Postby KakitaKaori » Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:29 pm

OK. Thanks for the clarification.
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Re: Doji Hotaru Clarification

Postby Doji Yoshi » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:14 pm

I'm hoping they revise the Rules Reference to clarify that you only resolve rings as the attacker.
More importantly I'm hoping they revise their templating so in the future instead of adding "as the attacker" to every card that works that way (crab province, display of power) that they choose to instead add "when attacking" to Hotaru and the Akodo Toturi.

I disagree with their current argument of how the card works and their templating is fine, because that is false.
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Re: Doji Hotaru Clarification

Postby Dare » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:58 am

Doji Yoshi wrote:I'm hoping they revise the Rules Reference to clarify that you only resolve rings as the attacker..


The rules are already very clear on that. The rings effects are literally "the attacker x"

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Re: Doji Hotaru Clarification

Postby Doji Yoshi » Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:00 pm

Dare wrote:
Doji Yoshi wrote:I'm hoping they revise the Rules Reference to clarify that you only resolve rings as the attacker..


The rules are already very clear on that. The rings effects are literally "the attacker x"

No. The rules are clear. But according to the rules, she works on the defense.
The Jade Rule If the text of this Rules Reference directly contradicts the text
of the Learn to Play book, the text of the Rules Reference takes
precedence.
If the text of a card directly contradicts the text of either the
Rules Reference or the Learn to play book, the text of the card
takes precedence.
- Emphasis mine
RR - looking for Claim - NO ENTRY
RR- Rings (2 entries, Rings and Ring Effects)
Ring Effects
Each time a player wins a conflict as the attacking player, he or
she may resolve the ring effect associated with the contested
ring’s element. The ring effects are as follows:
Air: The attacking player takes 1 honor from his or her opponent, or gains 2 honor from the general token pool.
Earth: The attacking player draws 1 card from his or her conflict deck and discards 1 card at random from his or her opponent’s hand.
Fire: The attacking player chooses a character in play and chooses to honor or dishonor that character.
Water: The attacking player either chooses a character and readies it, or chooses a character with no fate on it and bows it.
Void: The attacking player chooses a character and removes 1 fate from that character
Emphasis mine
RR - Conflict Timing 3.2.6. Resolve ring effects
3.2.6. Resolve ring effects
If the attacking player won the conflict (in step 3.2.3), that
player may resolve the ring effect of the contested ring.
..(abbreviated)
If the defending player or no player won the conflict, nothing
happens during this step.
Emphasis mine
RR - Conflict Timing 3.2.7. Claim ring
3.2.7. Claim ring
The player who won the conflict (in step 3.2.3) claims the
contested ring and adds it to his or her claimed ring pool.

If no player won the conflict (in step 3.2.3), the ring is returned
to the unclaimed ring pool.
Emphasis mine

Doji Hotaru's text:
Reaction: After you claim a ring during a (political symbol) conflict in which this character is participating -- resolve that ring's effect.
Emphasis mine

Premise #1. Players should have known that ring effects only work when the attacker wins a conflict. Therefore Hotaru doesn't work while attacking.

Answer #1. False. As posted, section 3.2.6 states that if the attacking player won.. (they) may resolve the ring effect of the contested ring. This is correct. This is how we know that we have ring effects in the first place. If we played with blank cards, this is the rule that would trigger, and rings would do things. However, Hotaru doesn't trigger in 3.2.6, nor does she replace it, or override it. Her effect occurs in 3.2.7, which is after the ring effects would normally happen. 3.2.7 has nothing to do with triggering ring effects. Therefore this would be a case of the Jade rule, as what Hotaru refers to clearly doesn't happen in the same window.

Result #1. No, it is not clear that Hotaru wouldn't work on the defense. In fact, based on this I would still argue she works on the defense.

Premise #2. Players should have known that Hotaru doesn't work because look at all the other cards that trigger rings on the defense, they point out that you can use the effect "as if you were the attacker". With that logic in mind, Hotaru shouldn't work on the defense because she has no phrasing that says "as if you were the attacker".

Answer #2. First off, let me say this is a terrible argument. You are trying to prove a negative on something because it lacks the positive on a few other cards. This is not a good requirement for your customers to have, "by the way, to know how card H works, you need to reference card K, R, S, and X because that really shows how things work." Because there is already a Learn to Play and a Rules Reference, that is the proper location for overall game rules. If Ring effects should only ever be activated by the attacker, unless the text of "as if you were the attacking player" then that should be globally available to all for access, and not inferred by other cards text. (Examples: Defend the Wall, Display of Power) Even the two cards I exampled are not consistent. One states "as if you were the attacking player" and the other says "as if you had won the conflict as the attacking player", so there's no consistency, even there. But let me go along a different tangent, this still doesn't disallow Hotaru according to the Jade rule. Looking at Defend the Wall, and Display of Power, neither of them trigger at the same step as Hotaru. They both trigger based on winning or losing the conflict or 3.2.3 (Compare skill values). Based on that timing, both of those cards are not changing what happens in 3.2.6, so they could very well just apply the ring effects from the Jade rule. So having that extra clarification on those 2 cards should not have anything to do with Hotaru.

Result #2. No, it is not clear that Hotaru wouldn't work on the defense. In fact, based on this I would still argue she works on the defense.

Premise #3. Nate said so. Hotaru doesn't work that way.

Answer #3. Um okay, but that doesn't mean the rules are clear, that Hotaru doesn't work that way.

Result #3. Stop saying it was clear when you clearly haven't backed up one ounce of your statement.

In summary, anytime anyone makes a card game, if they add a Jade card rule to the system, expect to have questions.
If you expect clarity, add helpful rules clues to keep players inline on the cards you print. Expecting the community to mystically come to the conclusion you had in your head because "this one clue on this one card makes me thing this way" is not an acceptable means of clarifications for rules.

edit1: Added the rings under ring effects for completeness. Notice the rings themselves say "The attacking player..".
Last edited by Doji Yoshi on Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Doji Hotaru Clarification

Postby Dare » Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:24 am

Your quoting of the timing steps of claiming the ring in resolution are entirely incorrect, because Hotaru isn't claiming a ring in resolution, she's merely resolving the Ring that you just claimed as part of resolution. But the effect of triggering the ring is coming from Hotaru's ability, not from the resolution framework.

The jade rule isn't applicable because you're not contradicting any rulebook effects.

Let's look at what Hotaru says:

Reaction: After you claim a ring during a <pol> conflict in which this character is participating – resolve that ring's effect.


So her ability is literally just "resolve the ring's effect". Let's look at the ring's effects, as detailed in the RRG:

Void: The attacking player chooses a character and removes 1 fate from that character.


Hotaru allows you to resolve the Ring's effect. So you resolve the effect, and the effect is "the attacking player does X". So by using Hotaru on defence, you are triggering an effect that gives the attacking player a benefit. There's no text anywhere that would suggest that you suddenly become the attacker (unlike on other similar cards). It's not about "only the attacker can trigger the ring", it's that the effect of the ring is very literally "the attacker does X". You are not the attacker if you claim the ring on the defence.


None of the resolution of a conflict apply to Hotaru's ability (outside of timing).

Now we've SEEN templating that suggests FFG are aware of the difference, since other effects say "As if you were the attacker", which Hotaru and Toturi omit.


I should make it very clear, I am in no way making any inference as to what was intended, but the rules for this are simple, if unintuitive. Trigger ring, ring SPECIFICALLY gives attacker the benefit. Perhaps "As if you were the attacker" was left off by accident, perhaps it was deliberate, but the reason behind the ruling is very clear because that's what follows the rules.


We've already seen from FFG if something ISN'T intended (eg, stronghold switching provinces), then despite an initial ruling that acknowledges how it currently interacts with the rules, they're willing to make changes to make things work as intended.

It's not the end of the world either way, though it does knock off some of Toturi and Hotaru's power. If the intention is for them to work on defence, I'd expect to see a change to the RRG or the cards in due course. If there's no change, then they're working as intended. I'm nothing officially to do with FFG so I'm not going to make a case either way to which was intended.

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Re: Doji Hotaru Clarification

Postby KakitaKaori » Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:57 pm

One more hopefully dumb question. As written, it does not say you may resolve the ring effect. It says resolve the ring effect. Done on defense, does that now mean it automatically resolves in the attacker's favor or can you choose not to resolve it at all?
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Re: Doji Hotaru Clarification

Postby Kakita Shiro » Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:25 pm

KakitaKaori wrote:One more hopefully dumb question. As written, it does not say you may resolve the ring effect. It says resolve the ring effect. Done on defense, does that now mean it automatically resolves in the attacker's favor or can you choose not to resolve it at all?

The attacker gets to choose to resolve it. You'd be counting on his beneficence to not trigger the ring to screw you even more.
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